Gorgias

SOCRATES: If, then, they are beautiful, are they not also good? For they are either pleasant or beneficial. POLUS: Necessarily. SOCRATES: Therefore, does the one who pays the penalty experience good things? POLUS: It seems so. SOCRATES: Then he is benefited? POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: Is it indeed the benefit that I suppose? Does he become better in his soul, if indeed he is justly disciplined? POLUS: It is likely. SOCRATES: Therefore, does the one paying the penalty get rid of the badness of the soul? POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: Is he then getting rid of the greatest evil? Consider it in this way: in the acquisition of wealth, do you see any other badness in a human being than poverty? POLUS: No, only poverty. SOCRATES: And what about in the constitution of the body? Would you say the badness is weakness, disease, ugliness, and things of that sort? POLUS: I would. SOCRATES: And do you believe there is also some badness in the soul? POLUS: How could I not? SOCRATES: And do you not call this injustice, ignorance, cowardice, and things of that sort? POLUS: Certainly. SOCRATES: Therefore, of wealth, body, and soul, these being three, you have named three badnesses: poverty, disease, and injustice? POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: Which of these badnesses is the most shameful? Is it not injustice, and in a word, the badness of the soul? POLUS: By far. SOCRATES: If indeed it is the most shameful, is it also the worst? POLUS: What do you mean by that, Socrates? SOCRATES: This: that the most shameful is always so either because it causes the greatest pain, or harm, or both, based on what we agreed before. POLUS: Very much so. SOCRATES: And have injustice and the entire badness of the soul just been agreed by us to be the most shameful? POLUS: They have indeed. SOCRATES: Therefore, is it either the most painful, surpassing in pain, that makes it the most shameful of these, or is it because of harm, or both? POLUS: Necessarily. SOCRATES: Is being unjust, undisciplined, cowardly, and ignorant more painful than being poor and sick? POLUS: It does not seem so to me, Socrates, at least not from these. SOCRATES: Therefore, by surpassing the others in some extraordinary, immense harm and wonderful evil, the badness of the soul is the most shameful of all, since it is not by pain, according to your argument. POLUS: It seems so. SOCRATES: But surely, that which surpasses in the greatest harm would be the greatest evil among existing things. POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: Therefore, are injustice, lack of discipline, and the other badness of the soul the greatest evil among existing things? POLUS: It seems so. SOCRATES: Now, what art rids us of poverty? Is it not that of money-making? POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: And what rids us of disease? Is it not medicine?

POLUS: Necessarily. SOCRATES: And what rids us of badness and injustice? If you are not so ready with an answer, consider it this way: where and to whom do we take those who are sick in their bodies? POLUS: To the physicians, Socrates. SOCRATES: And where do we take those who commit injustice and act without discipline? POLUS: Do you mean to the judges? SOCRATES: Is it not to pay the penalty? POLUS: I agree. SOCRATES: Do they not discipline using some form of justice, those who discipline correctly? POLUS: Clearly. SOCRATES: Therefore, money-making rids us of poverty, while medicine rids us of disease, and justice rids us of lack of discipline and injustice. POLUS: It seems so. SOCRATES: Which, then, of these is the most beautiful? POLUS: Which do you mean? SOCRATES: Of money-making, medicine, and justice. POLUS: Justice, Socrates, is far superior. SOCRATES: Therefore, again, does it produce either the greatest pleasure, or benefit, or both, if indeed it is the most beautiful? POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: Now, is undergoing medical treatment pleasant, and do those undergoing it rejoice? POLUS: It does not seem so to me. SOCRATES: But it is at least beneficial, is it not? POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: For one is rid of a great evil, so that it is profitable to endure the pain and be healthy. POLUS: How could it not be? SOCRATES: Would a man, then, be happiest regarding his body in this way, by undergoing treatment, or by not being sick at all from the beginning? POLUS: Clearly, by not being sick at all. SOCRATES: For happiness, it seems, was not this—the riddance of evil—but rather not possessing it at all from the beginning. POLUS: That is so. SOCRATES: What about this? Which of two people possessing evil, whether in body or in soul, is more wretched: the one who undergoes treatment and is rid of the evil, or the one who does not undergo treatment but keeps it? POLUS: It seems to me, the one who does not undergo treatment. SOCRATES: And was paying the penalty a riddance of the greatest evil, namely, badness? POLUS: It was indeed. SOCRATES: For it disciplines, I believe, and makes people more just, and justice becomes a medicine for badness. POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: Therefore, the happiest is the one who does not have badness in his soul, since this was shown to be the greatest of evils. POLUS: Clearly. SOCRATES: And second, I suppose, is the one who is rid of it. POLUS: It seems so. SOCRATES: And this was the one who is admonished, rebuked, and pays the penalty. POLUS: Yes. SOCRATES: Therefore, the one who lives worst is the one who possesses it and is not rid of it. POLUS: It seems so.