Gorgias

​SOCRATES: But consider indeed; if you speak at length and are not willing to answer what is asked, would I not on my part suffer terribly if it will not be permitted for me to go away and not to hear you? But if you care at all for the argument that has been spoken and wish to correct it, as I was just saying, taking back whatever seems to you, taking turns in asking and being asked, just as Gorgias and I did, refute and be refuted. For you surely say that you also know the very things that Gorgias does, do you not? POLUS: I do. SOCRATES: Then do you also bid yourself to be asked each time whatever anyone wishes, as one who knows how to answer? POLUS: Very much so. SOCRATES: And now indeed do whichever of these you wish: ask or answer. POLUS: But I will do this. And answer me, Socrates: since Gorgias seems to you to be at a loss about rhetoric, what do you yourself say it is? SOCRATES: Are you asking what kind of art I say it is? POLUS: I am. SOCRATES: It seems to me to be no art at all, Polus, if I am to tell you the truth. POLUS: But what does rhetoric seem to you to be? SOCRATES: A thing which you say you made into an art in the treatise which I recently read. POLUS: What do you mean by this? SOCRATES: A certain experience. POLUS: So does rhetoric seem to you to be an experience? SOCRATES: To me, yes, unless you say something else. POLUS: An experience of what? SOCRATES: Of producing a certain grace and pleasure. POLUS: Then does rhetoric seem to you to be beautiful, to be able to gratify people? SOCRATES: What is this, Polus? Have you already learned from me what I say it is, so that after this you ask if it does not seem to me to be beautiful? POLUS: Did I not learn that you say it is a certain experience? SOCRATES: Since you honor gratifying, are you willing to gratify me in some small way? POLUS: I am. SOCRATES: Ask me now what kind of art cookery seems to me to be. POLUS: I ask indeed, what art is cookery? SOCRATES: None at all, Polus. POLUS: But what? Speak. SOCRATES: I say indeed, a certain experience. POLUS: Of what? Speak. SOCRATES: I say indeed, of producing grace and pleasure, Polus. POLUS: Are cookery and rhetoric then the same? SOCRATES: Not at all, but parts of the same practice. POLUS: What practice do you mean?

​SOCRATES: I fear it may be rather rude to speak the truth; for I hesitate on account of Gorgias, lest he think I am caricaturing his own practice. But for my part, whether this is the rhetoric which Gorgias practices, I do not know—for just now from our discussion nothing became clear to us as to what on earth he thinks it is—but what I call rhetoric is a part of a certain thing which is none of the beautiful things. GORGIAS: Of what thing, Socrates? Speak; do not be ashamed on my account. SOCRATES: It seems to me then, Gorgias, to be a certain practice, not of an art, but of a soul that is guessing, bold, and by nature clever at associating with men; and I call the sum of it flattery. Of this practice it seems to me there are many other parts, and one indeed is cookery; which seems to be an art, but according to my argument is not an art but experience and routine. And I call rhetoric a part of this, and indeed cosmetics and sophistry, these four parts for four things. If therefore Polus wishes to inquire, let him inquire; for he has not yet learned what kind of part of flattery I say rhetoric is, but he himself has not noticed that I have not yet answered, and he asks again if I do not think it is beautiful. But I will not answer him beforehand whether I think rhetoric is beautiful or ugly before I first answer what it is. For it is not just, Polus; but if you really wish to learn, ask what kind of part of flattery I say rhetoric is. POLUS: I ask indeed, and answer what kind of part it is. SOCRATES: Would you then understand when I answer? For rhetoric is, according to my argument, an image of a part of politics. POLUS: What then? Do you say it is beautiful or ugly? SOCRATES: Ugly indeed—for I call bad things ugly—since you must be answered as one who already knows what I mean. GORGIAS: By Zeus, Socrates, but I myself do not understand what you mean. SOCRATES: Naturally, Gorgias; for I am not yet saying anything clear, and this Polus here is young and sharp. GORGIAS: But let him be, and tell me how you say rhetoric is an image of a part of politics.